SPEAKER_00 0:28

Welcome back to the Success Architect, guys. So we spend a lot of time talking about building businesses, discipline, momentum, construction, houses. But today we want to talk about something a little different that quietly determines the quality of all of it, your marriage. And it's interesting because the things that happen at home a lot of the times will bleed into what we do at work, right? And it's it's very interesting scene on Instagram, on you know, kind of our new society of social media and stuff where you can be winning publicly and still be losing at home. And if everything is off at home, it quietly bleeds into what is going on at work. So today we've got something very interesting. We have some good friends of mine, uh women who work in our companies, and each of them have a very unique mix of experience. They're also in different phases of marriage and relationship. So uh someone who's been on before, who's been married for over 10 years, uh, 13 years. It's my wife, Mackenzie. Uh, someone here, Merit, who's been married for almost a year. And we've got Lisa, who was married for 15 years and has gone through divorce and is now in the dating pool. I mean, I guess. Begrudgingly, maybe. Okay. What matters most though, is a lot of conversations about marriage come from one lens. And today we have three lenses, which is gonna be really fun. And uh, I'm a little scared because they're they're gonna ask me a lot of questions, and the idea is that I'm going to try to answer from my point of view answers to their questions, but I'll probably also have uh conversation about maybe what other men might be thinking, uh, depending on how much work they've done on themselves or maybe what their life experiences have been. So we're gonna talk about pressure, expectations, where men and myself get it wrong, uh, where women also can get it wrong on occasion. And today we're gonna try to say the things that people don't really say out loud so that we can normalize some of this conversation. Uh, let's get into it. Do you guys each want to give yourselves like a super quick intro, maybe 30 seconds each, and then we can dive into some starting questions. Okay? Start with Merritt.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

Um yeah, I know the Lewendals because I work with them daily. Um, and my husband and I have been married almost a year in July, um, together four years. And I'm excited to kind of see what Jake's reasoning is behind some of these questions.

SPEAKER_04 3:49

Um, I'm McKinsey, Jake's wife, and we've been married 13 years together, 15 years. We got married very young. We both came into our relationship with absolutely nothing. So I think we have a little bit of a different perspective on what relationship and marriage looks like if you came into your marriage at a little bit later point in life when you have an established career. I mean, we literally have built everything together and from absolutely nothing. So um, yeah, I think that puts a little bit of a different, different perspective on things too.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

I'm Lisa. Uh, I was married for about 15 years, um, three kids, family, the whole deal, um, and uh have been divorced slash separated for three plus years. So I'm on the other side. Um, and I think bring a unique perspective on both long-term marriage, but also um the perceived, I hate using the term failure, but the perceived failure or mistakes that can be made along the way. Um and I'm of course always thrilled to put Jake on the spot with some very pointed questions uh as I as I do on a daily basis here at the conference.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Very true. Very true. Yes, the feeling is not new. So um I'm super excited. This is gonna be really fun, and I guess what I can say is a solid chance I'm gonna get some of these answers wrong. But I suppose the point is is to find out what do women want to say and things that maybe they don't say out loud, and then from a male point of view, what's the answer that comes out? And is it aligned? And we're gonna find out. If it's not aligned, you're gonna say it, and uh, and we're gonna find out, hey, what what is the answer that would maybe make a woman a lot happier? I am not saying that you know an answer is right or wrong, but happiness, joy, contentment, I think is a conversation to be had here. So let's dive in. Who wants to go first?

SPEAKER_02 6:10

Oh, I get to start. Yeah. Sure. I'll start with a softball question, Jake.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Thank God.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

I am perplexed by this, having grown up with three brothers, been married. Why is it so hard for men to multitask?

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Okay, well, I think it's actually very difficult for all humans to multitask. Okay. Uh, first off, I guess strike one. I know. I am pretty damn sure that science has proven that humans cannot multitask, whether you are a woman or a man. Now, I will say my experience has shown that men are fucking terrible at it, and women actually do pretty damn good. So uh I don't know why that is the case, but I will say that I used to think I could multitask, and now I know I can't. And the, I suppose, more deeper answer to that, and interestingly enough, I think this is the answer for a lot of questions, is presence and being aware. And I have found that if I am not present in a moment, I think I can multitask until I get called out because someone says my name three times, or my five-year-old daughter has been talking to me for about 45 seconds, and Mackenzie says, Hey, Jake, she's talking to you. And I think I can multitask. Um, so I find that if I'm aware, I know that I cannot. And if I'm not present, like I think I can do it. The answer why, I'm not a scientist. I'm really sorry. The answer that I would hope men would listen to is to start thinking about it and be aware of it because it's fucking impossible.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

My question, really quick though, is why do women yes, I've seen women do a relatively good job at it, but like, do you think you can actually multitask really well? 100%. 100%. Okay, got it.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Absolutely. And I think we have a choice. I was just gonna say, I think, especially when kids enter the relationship, there's just so many scenarios in which you have to juggle multiple balls at once, and you can't just do one thing at a time. Um, but I would agree.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

I've seen that be true. It's very impressive.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

I think I agree that I think the presence piece is really critical. Um, like putting your phone down when your kid is talking to you, and I will probably still be cooking while my kid is talking to me or doing something that needs to be done, but I can be more present with them depending on the task that needs to get done.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

I think the answer probably is that the definition of multitasking is different in both scenarios, and it has to do with the presence. And women tend to be better at being present and being aware of their presence. So the thing that may be taking you away, like Instagram, is set down and you can still chop vegetables or cook or do whatever while talking to your kid, as an example.

unknown 9:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

All right, we'll move on to the side.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Sorry that kind of answered, but didn't.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

We'll move on to a more hard-hitting question because there's plenty.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Great. Awesome.

SPEAKER_04 9:31

Oh, would you want me to go on? Sure. Okay. Um we'll just do this as a warm-up question. When did marriage feel the hardest for you? And what did you actually do in that season instead of just communicate better?

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

That's a good warm-up.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Marriage, okay, so an off-the-cuff answer was until I really thought about it, because we've talked about this before, is first year of marriage was the hardest. That was like my off-the-cuff answer. I don't know if that's the case anymore, but I can say that the beginning was really hard because of lack of communication. So tell me at the end of your question, you said not just communication, something about communication.

SPEAKER_04 10:27

Because I think now when we've talked about this a lot, we talk about to make things better in your relationship, just communicate more.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

But what are other things like in those hard seasons when communication might feel like the most challenging thing? What are things that you've done besides just communicate more? Because if you're not a good communicator going into a hard season, it's hard to just communicate better.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Okay. Laziness is the answer. So we were very young when we got married. And I mean, being lazy in a relationship after you get married is way too easy. Like there's a honeymoon phase where you try and then you start to fall off. I've heard a lot of people say the first year is the hardest. And maybe I felt like that a little bit with us, but it's really after the honeymoon phase, which I don't know how fast it goes, seems like it goes pretty fast, the care level or the men get too comfortable in the relationship. And then they stop communicating and it really becomes laziness. Like they have expectations that go beyond, you know, they're they're putting in X amount of energy into the relationship, and maybe the woman is putting in more energy into the relationship. And I think the men are lazy. They don't see it. They're not aware of it. And then the communication there, in that case, I think it's probably the woman's, it's not her responsibility, but if she wants something to change, it would be great if she would communicate it. But I think maybe that's why the beginning of marriages is so hard because she communicates it, but he's being lazy, so she probably communicates it in a way of get off your ass and move, right? So it's just those conversations. I think when you're at the beginning of your relationship, come up too quickly because you don't have a lot of practice communicating with each other. And many people, like you and I went to a it was like 30 days of like a church-based counseling prior to marriage, which was really cool. And we talked about communication, but we didn't take the time to go either talk to a counselor or talk to someone with more experience in relationships until I don't know, year five or six. Something along those lines. And that's when we started learning about ourselves, which then made it possible for us to communicate with each other better. So I kind of leaned back on communication, but the answer to your question is that men get lazy really fast when they're in a situation that's comfortable. I think men kind of need to have a fire lit under their ass a lot.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

So can I ask just a follow-up to that? Because I think that's really interesting, is to me this question of comfort versus growth. And how do you think you can knowing that comfort feels good in many ways, but but that the success of a relationship relationship is many times rooted in a desire for growth? And so how do you think somebody can be more men in particular can be more cognizant of that dynamic between those two things? Because comfort probably leads to laziness.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Right. And so can you evolve from a desire for comfort into a desire for growth, or can the can both exist at the same time?

SPEAKER_00 14:20

I think both can exist at the same time. But what's interesting, I guess, is the way that I would think of it is if I'm shooting for more growth, it's in order to create freedom. And to me, freedom means comfort. That's just my definition, and it's freedom has a much larger definition. But in regards to what you're saying, I want to grow in order to create comfort. A lot of people say, hey, you need to practice being comfortable, being uncomfortable. Right? It's kind of a bullshit saying because the two can't be true. And so can you just be okay being uncomfortable? I think if we look at it from a marriage standpoint, when you're dating, especially as the male, theoretically the one chasing the woman, right? If if we're talking about like kind of old theoretically, yes, theoretically. Theoretically. Let's say we're talking about old adages, and like at least the way that I viewed it was like I wanted to be chasing. Yes, that's that's how I did it. And I guess how I saw it, maybe not the case nowadays, but I wanted to be chasing, which meant I was pretty uncomfortable. Like I was going out on a limb. It'd be like speaking in front of an audience, right? Like you're just going to ask the question and try to create a conversation and keep the conversation going and asking her out and all this stuff. So there's something with looking for that growth. The problem is after you get married, some men see it as like, oh, like we're here, and that's where the laziness sinks in. And um, one of the programs that I did seven years ago, it was based off the premise of date your wife. And you never stop dating. Because when you're dating, you're chasing. If you're not chasing, if you're not growing, you're staying stagnant, which is the comfort piece. So keep dating your wife is what I would like to tell people.

SPEAKER_04 16:30

It's not like that in the dating world anymore.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

I was gonna say, Jake, you clearly dated before app successfully. I did actually, it was like just before. This is like a really hot topic in dating right now, where a lot of, you know, I don't know, guys out there that are talking about this, which is this idea of just like go and ask somebody out.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

It's so much easier and there's so much less risk involved with typing a question, just like the same thing on putting comments on Instagram or Facebook versus actually saying it to somebody's face and seeing their reaction. And so I do think the concept of quote unquote, the the chase or is very different. And I do think technology had a huge impact on that. And that there's a big fear of risk and failure that is now associated with courtship.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

I mean it's rejection, right? Nobody like many people fear sales because of rejection. A lot of people who want to grow, whether they like sales or not, go be a door-to-door salesman for a year or so because that's how they grow in that place of being okay with rejection.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

So hope that helps.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Um kind of in line with that. I just think like traditional masculinity is slowly changing to something much more modern, right? Like the app dating, all of that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Slowly dying.

SPEAKER_03 17:55

Slowly dying, which is actually it's like a crisis on boyhood and manhood. 100%, which is maybe another topic. But um I married a man that is very traditional, yet also has very modern viewpoints, some of them. Um and he very they know him, so this is why it's funny. He also works here, so it's really funny. Um he's very much a provider, right? Like he loves to provide, whether that's buying dinner, whether that's uh getting the snow off my car, um, not making me get up, like very traditional in that sense. Um and sometimes I still feel, even though he does all of those things, that the ball is dropped. Um and so there have been times in this first year of marriage where I've given that feedback, probably not as eloquently as I would have liked, um, or as eloquently as he would have liked. But I think when I ask that, or it's like I'm questioning him as a provider, which I'm not meaning to do, it's coming off that way. It he takes it as a hit to his masculinity. And so my question is he's very masculine, just in nature, in hobby, and everything, as are you. So I'm curious how can you give feedback about per providing or you know, being the quote unquote man of the house without damaging the masculinity, because sometimes the ball is dropped.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Um so I guess yes to if if it's presented wrong, like there's a dichotomy of being the provider and being super masculine, but not feeling your feelings. Right? And so unfortunately, we're also really sensitive, even though we want to be providers. So if you come at us in a way that really like stabs the masculinity, it turns out it hurts our feelings, and it's hard to not be defensive. So, and and help me understand your question. Were you uh which which way are you asking the question about the masculine role? Okay, so how could a woman provide the feedback? Oh boy, that's a great question. That's a really tough one. Um don't ask me.

SPEAKER_04 20:49

I mean, well, clearly probably don't ask me the way Okay, here's here's the answer.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

I can't tell you exactly how to ask me the question of like, you know, why didn't you do this to provide for me, in essence, right? What I would say is if you ask yourself the question in your head, does it sound pro-relationship or not pro-relationship? Because you're both on the same team. Correct.

SPEAKER_04 21:19

I think for not being pro-relationship and counseling, that's why he's using that.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

I stole that one. Yes, I stole that one. So we're we're on the same team, right? And so we both want to be pro-relationship. And sometimes, even if we want to have growth, if we want to be providers, if we want to be the man of the house, even though that term, I don't know how well it sticks with society now, but I like the a bit of a traditional view of being a provider, not to the point of a woman stays home and doesn't provide. Like, I want women to be able to do whatever they want, but as a male person, Personally, I don't care what my wife is doing, whether she wants a career or want or she wants to stay at home, I want to be the provider. And if she's also a provider, that's just a bonus for our family, I see it. But at the same time, either way is a bonus to the family. Um I can't tell you exactly how to ask the question. I would say ask yourself, is this pro-relationship when you ask the question?

SPEAKER_04 22:26

For us, it's been a lot of tone of voice, look on my face, and me not being a smart ass. Because sometimes when I get fed up, I ask it very sarcastically. I have a dirty look on my face. And so I instantly like put him in the defensive. Whereas when I come at it and more like feel make him try to make him feel seen for what he's doing, and then give the critique, the feedback, it definitely changes a lot more. Like, for example, the other day, Brooklyn had been talking to Jake for, I don't know, a couple minutes, and Jake was literally in the clouds. And I was like, Jake, Brooklyn is talking to you. And like that did not go over well. And then it happened again a little bit later. We had a discussion about it. It happened a little bit later, and I was just like, hey, I think Brooklyn's been talking to you. And it was just my tone of voice, and he was like, Oh shoot, sorry, and like took accountability for it because he wasn't in the defensive, yeah, just saw it differently.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

If maybe this is too personal, but if if Paul is makes the bed and he does it not the way you like it, how are you gonna tell him, hey, I want it done this way?

SPEAKER_03 23:46

I wouldn't. The fact that it's made and he did it. I'd be like the pillows can look fucked up. It's fine.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Perfect. Perfect. So do you tell him that or just or just say thank you? Okay. And that's like stuff, yeah. And that's pro-relationship right there.

SPEAKER_04 24:00

I did not use to be like that.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Every everybody giving a little bit of grace here and there is super helpful. But when too much grace is given on one side is when the resentment happens, and then we have these questions of why are men so dumb or why can't they focus on it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

Which I don't, I think, I think honestly, in relationships, it's difficult because we're so in our own worlds. He doesn't put my shoes on, I don't put his shoes on. And so then in like the rare case, you get a glimpse of each other's life. He could never even like come up with a concept in his world where it would be waking up, planning the day, making sure he's fed, making sure his lunch is in his lunchbox, making sure I'm going to work, I'm hitting my tasks, and then coming home, fitting in a workout, being pregnant, and then also making dinner, making sure the kitchen's clean, making sure like, but at the same time, I could never go up to that job site and man it the way he does. Like I just couldn't. And I think oftentimes we never look at each other's lives like that. It's always like, I'm doing so much versus we're both doing so much. And that I think is this vicious cycle of coming back to like the multitasking question, where in his eyes he he could be multitasking, and in my eyes, I know I'm multitasking. Of course. You guys are always right. You know, it's just I think it's it's interesting, and Paul and I are very similar arguers, and so that's where we can also get in this place where it's like I'm right and he's right, and we're both so stubborn that no one's gonna be wrong.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Yeah. So, and I think like the biggest thing that I really key in on to what you said, Jake, is this concept of like your partner is your teammate. Yeah. And to make men understand what I'm saying, let's talk about sports ball, right? Which is a really smart thing. Because every man loves to talk about sports ball all the time.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

I love that you're coming into sports. That's what it is.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

All sports are just sports balls. It should be a new terminology. I try to bring out a line of hats. Actually, I have one that said sports ball.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

There's men that are punching the screen right now who need to say that.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

All of them that are like, yeah, sports ball. So, but my point is is like you've all watched the NFL game or whatever, where you like you see the teammates arguing with each other. And every man would be like, that's messed up. They're teammates. Why are they like turning against each other? They can't, or if somebody was on ESPN talking about their, oh well, my teammate, he didn't throw the ball right for me. Everyone would be like, Oh, that's bullshit. They're not a good team, they're not together. The coach needs to okay. Let's translate that to a marriage, which is the scorecard is me at the post-game whatever press conference, blaming the quarterback. Look, I'm talking so much sports ball right now. Yeah. But my my point is, is like every man understands this concept, but yet the bridge between that and your partnership or your relationship doesn't translate because we get focused on who's right or who's wrong, who's winning, who's doing more, I'm not getting credit. And at the end of the day, like it does come down truly, I believe, to the marriages that make it or that succeed, or where two people feel really valued and the love continues is when they do see each other as teammates. It doesn't mean that teammates don't have really shitty hard discussions behind closed doors where you like maybe don't handle it perfectly, but it means you still look at that person and say, they're not my adversary, they're my partner. And I think like that's where it all comes full circle to all of that.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_04 28:05

I saw something you sent it to me, I think, on Instagram the other day that was like, try that in the middle of a fight, just putting your hand on your partner, just being like, hey, we're best friends in this, and it like levels.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Oh yeah, instantly. Instantly, because it's like the tunnel vision just drops.

SPEAKER_04 28:20

Yeah, yeah. Because I think you do need that reminder.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

So to kind of follow up on the the team strategy of sports ball.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Thank you for you're gonna start using it now.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yeah, I'm gonna get punched in the face in the middle of a sports bar. Uh okay, so everyone's on the same team. You guys asked, we've talked about masculinity some today. We've we've touched the surface of it. And in some regards, when a question is asked in a uh not a pro rail pro-relationship way, it feels like an attack on our masculinity. And questions like, hey, why can't men multitask or things like that could be construed as an attack on masculinity, right? How do you guys feel when your femininity, femininity is attacked?

SPEAKER_04 29:16

Give an example.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

You're not being a good caretaker.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

You're not being a good care taker. You're not making me dinner. My dinner's not ready. My lunch isn't ready. Any anything like that. Things that I don't say. Why wasn't my lunch ready?

SPEAKER_03 29:40

I mean, it feels horrible.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

But yeah, it feels like um I'm not showing up the way that you always want me to, or the way that works for you, and you're ungrateful and um yeah, just incredibly ungrateful and honestly super belittling.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Totally. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

I mean, I think it's also we're like really focused on these sort of nitty-gritty ways that femininity or masculinity might show up, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

Lunches, earning money, whatever. I have not been in a traditional relationship like that. But what I think allows femininity to exist is a sense of safety. I agree with that. And trust. And trust. And so for me, any question or uh or whatever that would threaten my sense of safety or trust is what would erode my ability to feel feminine and feel safe and feel like I can let go and trust that if the shit hits the fan, somebody has my back.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

And so I think that A, we're all imperfect people. And if there's anything we've talked a lot about, like open communication, we're also going to do things wrong sometimes. But the biggest piece, like that you pulled out in that story, Kenzie, was you had the chance to repair with Jake after saying, Hey, you know, that didn't feel good the way you came at me with that question. But now can we like reconnect, make sure we're good, and move forward in a different way. Like, if you said it this way, I would have been more open.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Right. And like to me, there's also a difference between feeling confident and comfortable in my femininity or masculinity, and there's ego.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

And we have to know the difference between that. Like, ego is generally a reaction, and feeling feminine or masculine is like a response. It's taking the pause, being able to really understand where that's coming from. And so I guess that's how I look at all of this is when I can't be comfortable in my femininity, it's when I don't feel safe or I don't have trust that someone's got me. And maybe that's the same for masculinity. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

It is because without diving too deep into it, like masculine and feminine energy are real things, right? And if we could all learn to embrace those instead of blurring the lines, I think the tough part is things like making dinner, taking care of the house in a bit of a archaic or even 30 years ago type of relationship. That that is like those are like the tasks that say 20, 30 years ago or even now, some people say like that's feminine, this is masculine. Whereas they're not taking into account the feminine and masculine energy, which is more what I heard from you, yeah, and living in that. And that is to me, I enjoy being a provider, I enjoy being a protector, and I want my wife to feel safety and security. And when both of those things can happen, each one feels more powerful, and that's when I think like magic happens. And some ways to do that on a daily basis is just when you're speaking, what is pro-relationship?

SPEAKER_04 33:20

But that also took years for us to get to that point. We were just talking about this last night.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Yeah, took forever.

SPEAKER_04 33:28

Because actually, it'll be kind of the next question, I think. That's why I wrote this next question. Where do you think high performing people sabotage their marriage without realizing it? Want me to answer that one?

SPEAKER_00 33:42

I mean, you can I'll tell I mean, I'll tell you the there's a lot of things, but it's ego. One of them is ego. Um, it also depends. Are you talking about like two higher performing people? I guess it depends what regard, but I think high-performing, growth-oriented people who are together in a marriage, it's really easy to not be present because you're constantly looking for what the future holds instead of living where your feet are at. And in my opinion, the way to win that on a very surface level uh way is to both have the same goals of growth, but to be very, very happy and joyful in your present state. And I think living in your masculine and your feminine energy with that is what superpowers that like those those all go together. Living in that energy and being very present with each other, which is things like communication, which is things like putting down the phone and communicating in a pro relationship way. That's like the basis of being present. So it's too easy as a as anyone high performing to have your your mind way out in front of your feet. And that easily sabotages marriages like all too often. And there's other things that we could talk about with that. But I think for the this conversation, that's that's an easy answer.

SPEAKER_04 35:27

Yeah, when I wrote the question, I was kind of thinking of our conversation the other night about I have a really good friend who she is a powerhouse in business. And she has a hard time meeting a man who can almost match her enough to the point where she feels safe enough to then be taken care of. So it's like they both compete constantly and it, but she hasn't been in a relationship with a man where she feels comfortable enough, safe enough to even feel okay saying, like, okay, I would maybe feel okay being taken care of and be able to like let her foot off the gas pedal a little bit. And we were talking about this the other night because it is a very vulnerable position to be in. Why are you laughing? It's just staring at me. It's very well there, okay. And this is not you we were talking about. This is an butt it's a vulnerable place to be in because it took years of us building that in our relationship for me to be like, okay, I might take my foot off the gas puddle a little bit and step back. And I would still even like divorce isn't something we ever throw around. But if we were to get divorced, I have no career. So like it is a very vulnerable place to step back in your relationship to play more on those like masculine and feminine energies and roles. And it takes years and years and years of like building that trust. And I guess when I wrote the question, I think it's easy to sabotage a marriage or relationship because you kind of have that competing piece for a while that you have to like work through to then feel more like a team.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

I mean, it's almost like you're having a backstop. Like you don't, I mean, as a woman, you're not fully trusting that you are going to be safe and secure in that relationship or in that marriage. So you always gotta have a backstop.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

And for some women, that's a good plan to have.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

It is like there's some people who have to have that, which is very unfortunate.

SPEAKER_02 37:36

You know, I I've I I don't know if I could ever let go to a point where I wouldn't have that because of a million reasons. But I also think there's high performing people are generally achievers. Achievement is like a dopamine fix. Yeah, you hit a target, you win a sale, you do it feels really good. It's not a marathon, it's like a sprint. And I think when if if there are two high achieving people, like it I don't know that they're in competition with each other, but they're in competition to get that high of achievement and validation, which is ego-oriented.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

That's all ego, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:21

And so I think that that in itself, the output is to potentially sabotage a relationship, but it's not being done knowing that's the case. But I I do think that a lot of what you said is very true, Jake. Like and I I do think also high performing people tend to be self-starters, they tend to be independent, they tend to do all those things that make the vulnerability of feeling like you can trust someone and have a team with someone really terrifying. Right. And so um I think that it is it's also like part of what we live in in capitalism is rooted in individualism and competitive and high performance. And so everything we've been taught is to do that, and so to suddenly be like, I'm good, this person's got me, yeah, is really scary, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:16

And and just to be clear too, I don't think let's say we take this to a high growth-oriented couple, I don't think that means the woman needs to pull off or let off the gas in say business, right? Right, but finding that happy medium where you're a yin and yang, where if a woman wants to keep her foot on the gas in business, it's no longer a backstop. It's because it's what she likes to do and it's contributing to the relationship, right? Which also takes a man with a lot of masculine energy to accept and to kick the ego out and to say, wow, that's so fantastic, but still be in that yin and yang instead of competing with each other.

SPEAKER_03 40:04

That's where I think men and women can have different definitions, right? Like my version of femininity could be different.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 40:11

Um than you know, a different woman and Paul's definition of masculinity could be different than you know, a close friend of his. I think that's it's just our anatomy though, I think, you know, for a straight person is you're gonna be attracted to someone who's masculine and what you find attractive, right? Like, for example, and I'm not I don't mean to speak for you, but like dear. No, you you are like financially, I have my back. Financially, I do I'll make sure everything's paid for, I'll make sure everything's good. But you're like a blue-collar man, let me get some eyes on that, you know, like you're but because that's what you think is masculine, and you're like, oh, it's attractive to me that he's willing to get his hands dirty, to use his body to work hard in that realm. And you know, for me, I'm like same with like I Paul's hobbies are wild and you know, primitive hunting and fishing and all of that stuff. And I love it. Like, I think that's really I think it is attractive. Sometimes it's you know the biggest scheduling conflict of my life, but I also understand like that is him. And I think for me, and even men, like men are visual creatures, like I think how we carry ourselves and you know, like to look nice, like that means a lot to I think probably the men that we typically are attracted to and dedicate our lives to. Like, they want a woman to look and feel like a woman, you know, and so anatomy plays a huge role in that. Where yeah, maybe there's compromises here and there, maybe she doesn't like to cook, so he steps in and cook. Like everyone has a different definition, but I think when we go back down to the science of it, like we do need to feel safe, we do need to feel attracted to each other. Um, and I think that's where this idea of feminine and masculine can have different versions in every couple, but you have to feel that like draw, and you have to feel like the freedom to be in that energy, like you said.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

Yeah, on that note, um, there's a lot of talk about because we've talked very about traditional masculinity and femininity and all this stuff, but like that women desire a man that is emotionally available. Yeah, and I think it's challenging in many ways to find men that are very emotionally available. And so I guess my question to you is like, why do you think so many men are not? Or what do you think could help them get to a place where they are?

SPEAKER_00 43:05

Yeah, I mean, I hate to blame it on the environment, but I think it's society has created that. I think that living in America, though America's amazing, my favorite. Um, the uh we're not getting political. I think it's a great the greatest country on earth, but um anyway, in America we have right, I mean no America baby. I thought so. In America, society doesn't usually allow men to have a lot of feelings out and about. It's very much like if we go back to the primitive piece of it, it's like I go kill, so we eat, right? And and society doesn't really allow us to bring those emotions out. We're talking about sports ball and the locker room in sports ball. Like, there's no room for talking about emotions in the locker room when you're playing sports. There's no room for when we are in middle school and high school to talk about emotions. And unfortunately, many of our dads did not know how to talk about emotions. So um sometimes our moms did, and we got to do it a little bit, but the bit that we got to with our moms, we were watching our dads, and they were not teaching us that we can actually speak about our emotions, which sucks. And so we bottle them up and hold on to them. I hate to blame it on society, but that's where we are.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

And upbringing.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

So what do you think men can do? Because part of me is it's also can't be this scapegoat of like No, there's gotta be a solution, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Right. And take ownership.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

Yes. And there's this, there's a lot of funny content right now around like the male loneliness epidemic. And I'm like, okay, first of all, that's not an epidemic. Um, secondly, maybe we invented that one. Maybe we do something about it. I don't know. Join a running club. Like, if you're lonely, go talk to people, play sports ball. Go play sports ball. I think it's just really interesting that there's sort of this victim mentality around it versus true a mentality that's like, okay, wow, we live in this amazing place with tons of resources. Here's what you can go do. And what do you think will get men to take that seriously?

SPEAKER_00 45:43

For sure. So, I mean, more failed marriages is is probably what starts to make it a little bit more serious. But if see, that's what's really hard is usually you don't notice it until you have a failed marriage, until you lack connection with your kids. And and these like catastrophic family events start to creep up, right? And so what I found is that I found a group of men that turned out I had to pay a lot of money to be a part of, and I got my ass kicked in in this scenario, but it was I I ran into uh a wall in our relationship where I wasn't getting the results I wanted. And I was being told, like, you're failing in these areas, like we can't communicate. Like, there's there's something, there's a there's a wall there that's stopping it. So I guess what I would say for most men to look at, and if we're talking about masculinity, let's go down to like the basis of what men want. Like, yes, most men want to be producers and they want to make more money, they want to be in a good relationship with a wife and they want sex, and they want to be good providers and dads. And those three are really hard, and it doesn't really hit home until you start failing in those areas. You're not making enough money, your wife does not want to have sex with you, your body's falling apart, you have dad bod, and maybe you don't have connection with your kids. Sorry, I know some women like dad bods anyway.

SPEAKER_02 47:30

I don't think there's any at this table, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

Okay, sounds great. Um I'm getting a little long-winded, but the the point is that I think most men won't realize it unless they like hear some podcasts and hear some guys say, like, you're being an idiot, go talk to somebody. Or if they start realizing, oh my god, I'm not getting late, I'm not making money, I'm not having connection, and my wife doesn't even want to look at me when I get home. So I grab a beer and I go sit on the couch and I'm lazy. And then usually their wife is like, fix it, or I'm out. That is the point where most of the men that went to the program I went to are at. They are told, go fix it, figure out a way to fix your life, or I am out, and I'm going to be my own security, my own provider, and my own safety net. It's unfortunate that it has to get to that point, but most men are really bullheaded and we've grown up, like understanding that being stubborn and not talking about our feelings is just how it is. So it takes a catastrophic event like that to then say, okay, I'm gonna go find help. And there is help.

SPEAKER_04 48:45

How do you get men to care at that point? Like to give care enough that if your wife says, like, fix it or I'm out, and they're not just like or that you're not gonna the wife isn't already gone.

SPEAKER_02 48:56

Like, I think that's a huge turning point, too, is like half the time by the time a woman actually says that, yeah, they're like, it's pretty hard to bring her back.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

It's super hard to bring her back, but also I think most men realize at that point that that's such a kick in the nuts that they've put in all of this time with this woman. It's it's not easy to just go find another and think it's gonna be fixable. And for a couple men in the world who have enough money that they do this four times and they pay out all of these wives from all these divorces, they start to realize, good God, this is a terrible idea. I'm guessing most men, it only takes one divorce to then start to realize, like, oh, my life's going to shit. Like, there is a rock bottom, and men will feel it when they hit it. It just takes a really long time. So when they hit rock bottom, they then start going, oh my god, what do I do? Maybe they're in shit tons of debt, maybe they're divorced. Or in like my case, I didn't really have a hard rock bottom, but like I had a wife who told me, and I was present enough to be aware of like, wow, this is not going the direction that I thought about when I was 16. I'm not on my way to the goals that I wanted. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna go do this. And when I say a lot of men have to hit rock bottom, it's because many of the men that I was in this group with, they were cheating on their wives. They had gone bankrupt, they had gotten divorced, they were in these spots where their kids hated them. Maybe because they cheated on their mom. Things like that, that then led them to make a change. And I gotta say, like most, many of the men that came out of that program that I did, like completely turned their lives around. And mine wasn't that catastrophic, but my life completely turned around too. Does that answer your question? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Just you know, imagine if prevention was actually And that's the problem.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

Like, is prevention should be talked about. Right. And and that's and the other answer to your question is why aren't men, why aren't more men sitting on in rooms like this talking about it? Right. And that I suppose is part of what many people in this world would like to see normalized, including me. Talk about your feelings, talk about these things, create a group of friends that you can actually talk about these things with and be vulnerable with. Because that's hard.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

And like I want to make sure I'm clear. It's like it takes two people to tango. There's plenty of emotionally unavailable women. There's plenty of and a marriage fails not because of one person, like it always fails because of two people, period. So I don't think that it's one person's fault. It's it's um, I think there is a new, at least I can say, like women, I think have a very different expectation of what a relationship delivers now versus 25 years ago it was, yeah, you're the provider. Now they're like, we're good. Yeah, I'm good. What I actually want is depth and connection. And you can't just lean on the fact that you might pay the mortgage. Like that's actually not gonna cut it anymore because I pay the mortgage too. And so I think that that's actually what has now men are maybe, I don't know, being like, oh shit, I better catch up. Yeah. And totally, because the definition of what partnership is has evolved as for sure. Women have also evolved.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

It has evolved. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:49

On top of what Lisa was just saying, like the flip side of it is it does take two people. So I hope that if Jake ever came home and I was letting myself go completely, sitting on the couch, just downing wine, and the kids were running around, the house was a mess. And my commitment that I had made to our relationship and whatever those roles are, I would hope that you would say to me, like, you need to fix your shit. This is not what I signed up for either.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

And maybe that's what it comes down to, like saying, hey, look, this is both parties saying this is what I signed up for. And catching it early. You talked about prevention. How do you, in a pro-relationship way, have these conversations about prevention and see it ahead of time? I think unfortunately, whether it's the male or the woman, I don't, you know, people can deal with a lot, especially I will give it to women, can deal with a lot. A guy can be an asshole for three years, four years, and she will stick around until it's like the last straw. But if a woman would say at month two, hey, what do you think about going to work out with me? Or I need you to do this, please. Would you please help me with this? Instead of waiting till two years down the line when everything's gone to shit. It's not always gonna work, but maybe that's a a bit of an ounce of prevention, right?

SPEAKER_04 54:27

I think I am always like a big proponent of this is counseling. Because sometimes I think having that third party that can pull you both out of being in yourself so much and look at. I just think it's good to have that third party there because it teaches you about your relationship, it teaches you about how you're showing up, how your partner's showing up. Like you learn so much when you're raised a certain way and you've gone through life and like different things have molded you and shaped you and created who you are, until somebody points out to you the full thing. It's hard sometimes to just be like, okay, I want to change. I sometimes I still to say, I don't know how to ask you what I'm wanting to ask you. And say it how I'm wanting to say. So, like, yes, I think that ideally would be great to say it in month two, but sometimes I don't even You don't know how you don't know what you you don't know what you don't know. And sometimes it's someone sitting you down and saying to you, what are you actually trying to ask? Because you're not asking what you think you're asking. So I think, I don't know, I'm a big proponent of cow counseling.

SPEAKER_00 55:38

Yeah, and I hope more men can probably because traditionally I'm guessing more women ask the male to go to counseling. And I have friends who have said no. I know people who have said no, I don't want to, or they've gone once or twice and then be like, sweet, we tried, didn't work. I don't know how to change that. I guess I just hope listening to things like this, listening to other podcasts, listening to maybe friends who who actually have your back for men, they can they can step back and say, Oh yeah, I'd be willing to give that a try.

SPEAKER_03 56:14

Yeah, I think we even talked about it today, where I think a lot of times I'll hear in fights whether it's a close friend or you know, what have you, it's kind of like this threat at the end of the fight, like I'm just gonna leave. I'm just gonna leave. I'm gonna throw my hand, like I'm done. And one thing that Paul and I like have promised each other is that we're never just we never threaten that.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

Yeah, the words just don't come out.

SPEAKER_03 56:45

No, and like we don't even go there. And I know this is my personal thing, but I'm like, any conflict, any conflicts for bearable. What are you talking about? You talked about that today. I was like, tomorrow's gonna be fine. Like, we're we're not this doesn't affect us long term, and I know that's not the same for everyone, and I know that probably came from witnessing a healthy marriage in my childhood where there was fights and then there was resolution.

SPEAKER_01 57:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 57:13

And I think um in my marriage, we'll fight, we'll get mad at each other, it can last all night long, but I would never look at him and be like, I'm out, I'm done, I want a divorce. I would never even utter that unless something crazy, catastrophic, you know, and I don't even go there. But I think a lot of times people do just give up. And it's really easy to do that. And I think um the more we practice and have safety around conflict in any relationship, I think um fighting becomes a little bit easier and people potentially are a little bit less blind-sided.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

Something we've learned in counseling is uh secure attachment comes from conflict and repair. Secure attachment cannot be created without the conflict and without the repair. And the tough part about repair is that you have to throw the ego out because usually it means like stepping down and wet taking ownership for something or just getting rid of your stubbornness and not winning. Like, do you want to get what you want or do you want to be right? I like to get what I want. I don't care about being right.

SPEAKER_04 58:32

Louie even says that.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

Louie even says that smart, smart little Australian dog.

SPEAKER_02 58:41

So I wanna flip, I wanna flip the table on you, Jake.

SPEAKER_00 58:44

Excellent.

SPEAKER_02 58:45

If I can. And ask, like, what do you think the one thing men would want to say to women but don't say is?

SPEAKER_00 58:54

Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 58:58

Just brutal honesty, radical candor, if you will. Say it.

SPEAKER_00 59:07

I don't know, I'm like waiting. This is a trace.

SPEAKER_04 59:11

No.

SPEAKER_00 59:12

Um, and I'm not saying this from okay, yeah, of course, there's personal experience, but this is I'm I'm talking about. I'm not speaking about what I want to say in this moment. This is what I hear a lot from men. But men want to get laid more, and they want to feel power, and so finding ways to do that in life is probably what drives a lot of men. And unfortunately, there's really shitty ways to do that, or there's really good ways to do that. So, I mean, one example of power is money, right? And so there are many men who like they want a passive wife, and they make a lot of money, and they want a passive wife, and they're gonna get laid, and then they don't really have to put in a lot of work. And I think that's a pretty shitty way to go, but there's men who do that. There's also other guys who just like who wish for these things, but they think they can't get them, and so they become lazy. So if you're a guy who maybe is not getting everything that you want in life, I think maybe more instead of telling what you want, I would love to see more men like ask what would make you feel safe and secure so these wants of mine could happen. And then have a real conversation about it. But that's a really friggin' scary thing to ask. Yeah, I think because it's so wonderful, so vulnerable.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:08

Well, you're also held accountable to doing the things the person responds, right? Or saying, Hey, I I actually can't do that. And that's okay too. Yeah, but like it requires honesty, and that's the trouble.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

Yeah, it takes honesty, it takes vulnerability, and it takes like willingness to do whatever is asked in the situation, and um and I will say, like, I think Instagram and stuff makes it really hard. There's some dudes who are out there saying how much they get laid every single week by their wife, they drive 10 different sports cars and they make tons of money, and their life just looks super fucking easy. Probably not the truth, but that's what it looks like. So some guys binge on that.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:56

But people go on Instagram and say how many times they're getting laid every day.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

Yeah, your algorithm's different. So if so my my old algorithm.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:05

Yeah. Take your phone and take it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:12

And you can take mine and you'll learn a lot too.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:14

Perfect, perfect. And you'll be really happy. I don't know, I don't know if I'd answered your question. That is a really hard one. The other one that I would say is many times I fall into this trap. If things are going right, are going well, and I have something to say, many times I will hold back from saying it because things are going well and I don't want to fuck it up. I would tell myself find a pro-relationship way to ask the question. And so that's some advice that I can take for myself.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:59

Yeah, I think in my marriage, which is really interesting, is um it when Paul's gone and he's hunting and he has his time away, and if I call him for something that I can easily fix, manage, do myself what I sense on the other line in the three minutes that we have to talk on the phone, maybe that day or every other day, he's like, Why are you why are you telling me this? Like, if you've got it, I'm doing my thing right now. Like this is creating stress for me when I'm out doing this thing. And in the beginning of our relationship, it really bothered me because I was like, dude, I'm here like holding the fort down. Granted, we had no strings, like it was just us and a house and like a dog. And it would frustrate me. I'd be like, why can't I tell him my need when he's gone? And like the more time we've had in our relationship, I do understand, and that's his thing. And like he wants to go away and not have to be stressed or worried. Do I think that's a hundred percent reality? Absolutely not. Do I think that's gonna change when our child welcomes into the world 100%? But at the same time, like when I go and do something for myself and I get a call from him and he's like, Well, how do I do this? And where do I? I'm like, figure it out, bud.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

So it's the same other way.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:23

I'm like, I want to I want to be with my girlfriends right now. I don't want to have to answer where the ketchup, where the ketchup's from. I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:32

When when okay, when did you make the connection that you guys were doing the same thing, but it looked different?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:40

Paul and I tend to have that repeat. Okay. So, like, he'll, you know, he'll bring something up, and I'm like, well, that sorry, that's just not realistic. And then I'll do it. And we sometimes have to remind each other, like, hey, you did this to me, or I did this to you, and like, how silly is that? And it's just, it's, I think, just a growing pain of a relationship, right? Where it's like, damn, I just got called out for something I called him out on, and it's not perfect. And I I mean, obviously, there's emergencies that happen that we need to call each other, but yes, small things that are relatively pointless in a big picture of life. Like, we don't like hold, take a few minutes, try and figure it out. And if you can't, contact the person. But it is interesting, and I see this a lot with some of my friends where it's like hunting is a big not to always go back to this, but it is almost like a big sacrifice, right? Like he is gone for X amount of days, no service, limited service. I can't really get a hold of him. It's an in reach here, it's an in reach there. And he will never fully know what that is like, right? Because I don't go off the grid like that for those many days. Maybe I'm doing something where I'm Unavailable, but it's very, very different. And I think we both have to learn, and we have learned how we need to make sacrifices for each other's hobbies because that makes him Paul, and my hobbies make me merit. And it hasn't been easy. And I don't want there to be resentment and anger. And like granted, things have to shift in life, but um I think that's you know part of learning how to be with one another. And I think oftentimes people don't do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:34

If I wouldn't mind just also giving a piece of advice to the men listening to this, sometimes your partner, your wife, whatever, she doesn't actually want you to offer a solution. Hot tip. You don't need to fix it. I would agree.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:48

You want to ask a question around that?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:51

I'm just gonna turn this into Lisa tells you where you fuck up. Yep. Like, just you you could even say, What do you need from me right now? I can write it on your hand. That's all you have to say. She might look at you and go, I just needed you to hear me. Yeah. Or that's it. And the it's done. But the minute you say, Well, if you would have just filled in the blank, it ain't gonna end well. Like you not want to say things. Yes. It's like this very and and I understand like the Superman concept of wanting to swoop in and fix things is great, but many times women just want to know you're standing next to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:30

I just think their brain doesn't genuinely work. Like they are such fix-it people.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:34

They are I think we could try. I do believe you don't have to be perfect at it, but you could try to just ask a question. Like curiosity solves a lot of problems. Just gonna throw that out there. Just saying. I mean, we do it at work all the time. Like, what if I meant it at work?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:55

They are literally like problem solution, problem solution, problem solution.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:59

Just just you would wonder if we got it all out at work, though, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:03

Yeah, you might come home and say, Right, can I just be curious for a minute?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:07

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:08

I just think it doesn't have to be, you know, again, you don't have to be perfect at it, but like half the time you just kind of want to say the words and you don't even want a solution. You just need somebody to say, like, I'm here with you. That sucks. Yeah, that sucks. Must have been hard. You know, I think I I do this in parenting a lot too, right? It's it all translates. Like, wow, that sounds really tough. You must have felt frustrated. Yeah, like I did. I it's it goes back to validation, right? Which is just, I think a lot of our relationships are rooted in wanting that.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:45

Yeah, I think that is interesting because I do think it goes back to like the masculine, feminine, right? And being the provider. It's like when I present a problem to Paul, he's like, Well, I gotta help her fix it. And when he presents a problem to me, I'm like, gosh, I'm so sorry. What are you gonna do? I want a solution. How are you gonna do that? Tell me what to do. Like, I have literally no idea how to fix that. See the enemy of it. I am here to walk you through it. I don't know. Like, you know, but he's it's he's so he's like, I gotta get her out of it. I gotta get her. I'm like, I I can get myself out sometimes, but I'm also like when he comes to me with a stuff, I'm generally like, I love you. That really must be hard. Because I have no clue what steps you should take.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:31

See, I think I'm a recovering fixer. I think like I used to be the solution person all the time, or I would want to fix it for them.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:38

So, did you guys just bark solutions at each other?

unknown 1:09:41

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:43

Oh, wow. I don't know how I'm gonna be going there. The whole masculine feminine energy was really off my shocker.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:51

Um, but yeah, no, I think like I think I I'm saying this, but I also am speaking to myself in it. Like it's not my responsibility to fix all the problems because that also creates a child parent marriage, not an adult adult marriage.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:07

I mean, it's pretty simple. It comes down to awareness again. Many guys don't know this. Turns out they can learn it from this podcast or about 30, I don't know, 3,000 other ones at least, if they're willing to listen. And then it's being aware in the moment. Like I know that, but I still do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:29

Especially Jake doesn't like when I'm sad. So if I'm sad, if Jake needed to like fix it, and I just don't know how to do sadness super well. So when he then tries to fix it and I don't want something fixed, then I just go back to doing sad by myself because I'm like this or she gets mad or to offset it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:47

Offset it.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:48

Or it's like they feel like it's taking over the mood of like the house, and like we need to fix this right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:53

Yeah, holy cow, we gotta fix it because we need resolution and then we gotta go on with our night and have a nice dinner together.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:58

Yeah, also allowed to like kind of be sad for a second. He's like, No, you're totally right, but like you're really sad. Like, yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:05

Yeah, it that one's that one's awareness, and like, I don't know, listen, read a freaking book and understand that it's it's one line. Women don't want to fix it, they just want you to listen. And that's why. I mean, some men might say, like, then go fucking talk to your girlfriends.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:22

Which we do, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:24

Which which you do, exactly. But at the same time, in order to have this secure relationship, if a man can get good at that, I guess what what I'm gonna tell him is you're gonna get laid more. Like, if you just sit and listen and shut up, it's I just learned this in sales, Lisa. I didn't just learn this, but we're talking about it. Yes, I can sell that a lot better now, actually. Sometimes, maybe. Um, but in sales, like shut up and listen. Right? Correct. So listen. Oh, hey, honey, that really sucks. Is there anything I can do for you?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:06

I almost can't take you serious.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:08

I know, I know. It's really hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:10

That's probably not actually how it is, but like I just also want to dispel the myth that women don't want to have sex. I'm just gonna put that out there. Like, but that's that's like I think there is this belief that like the man has to convince and do like it's like no, there's actually a lot of women who enjoy sex and want that to be a healthy part of their relationship, but but you also have to cultivate a relationship, which is what you're saying, Jake. No problem, in which it's not a transactional element of your relationship. Yes, it's a way to connect, it's a way to like, you know, I'm not we're not going that deep. But my point is, is like it's when it becomes transactional, a woman is turned off immediately. Tit for tat. If I do this, I get that. It's like ew, that's gross. But I don't think this perception that women don't want to have sex or have a healthy sex life is fair because I actually think pretty much every woman I know, well, aside from a few, want that. Not naming names. I agree.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:17

The perception is trash and and it's but it's it's how men are going about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:25

And a little bit of work goes a long way. Turns out, and a little bit of like being present in your shoes and listening goes a long way.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:35

Which it's hard to be present in each other's shoes. It's just, you know, it's more so just making sure you both feel seen and heard and asking each other how the day was, and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:46

But I'm like, anyway. Can I ask you one question? Yeah, if you don't want to answer your answer and answer, you can go back and tell yourself something when you were first newly married. What's the biggest piece of advice you wish that you could give that woman?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:07

I don't that'll like it gives me goosebumps. Um don't abandon yourself. I think like I think I mean I don't know, Merritt knows I talk about this stuff all the time, but it's so easy when you get on the treadmill of life to be focused on the kids and even the partner and the marriage and the house and the checklist. I call it like the checklist. So many people in their 30s in that decade, it's about the checklist, right? And it's so easy to leave your relationship with yourself to the wayside because the relationship with yourself isn't crying in front of you or upset or needs to be fed or needs to be paid or needs to whatever. That it it just can it can fall away. And I think your relationship with yourself is the foundation for a positive marriage and and relationship with a partner, whether it's marriage or not. And so that would be my advice. I don't know if I even would have totally understood it when I got married because I was probably too young, but um, but I think when I talk to younger women who are starting this, that's my biggest thing that I say continue to cultivate a relationship with yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:31

What would you have told yourself? Obviously, you guys are still married and happily married, but I'm curious if you could go back to it.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:38

I think that had to do with more my personal journey, not our marriage. Um I think kind of to what you were saying earlier, the fighting and the repair. I think I lived in a lot of I did not, I didn't see it from my parents' marriage, but how my parents did relationships if there was conflict, it was like done. So I think I lived in a lot of fear in our relationship in the beginning because I didn't know how to fight and I did not know how to do conflict, and so I think I would go back and tell myself to show up a hundred percent as myself and just put so much trust and faith in that instead of a little bit of this like one foot in, one foot out, constantly like back and forth because I was living like so scared to like fully let someone else maybe have my back and not me feel like I had to do it on my own all the time. And I think that I think that held us back in a relationship a lot in the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:58

Like the first month instead of the first year. Anything you want to tell yourself now? Um maybe that's unfair.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:08

No, I mean, honestly, the first year has been really amazing. Like um and I know that we'll have our ups and downs, and we're we've had our fights. We're building a house, I'm having a baby, like we're really doing everything all at once. And it's not been easy, but um, I have had uh previous relationships where I completely abandoned myself, like I didn't even recognize myself upon exit. And I promised myself that I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever do that again. And the day I met Paul, I was a hundred percent me. And there was like no going back. And I think sometimes I'm like, okay, Meredith, that was petty. Like maybe you don't need to pick a fight over something so small, which I've gotten better at. Um but I'm like, no, I will bring it up if it bothers me. And I'm like, no, it's fine, like let's pick our battles now. Um and it's not perfect at all. We're still learning, right? We're not not even in this a year, but it's nice. It's it's a really cool stage, and it's a really cool feeling knowing that we've promised each ourselves to each other. And we go back to our vows if we're in a fight, we go back to sort of like the beginning and the why behind us, and we're both the most stubborn people I've ever met. And so it makes for very entertaining arguments to look back on. But um You guys start recording some of those. He'd be like, what is that? He'd be like, wait, she just said what he just said in such different words and then yeah, wait, what? But um, I mean, honestly, my advice would probably be like, don't get a puppy, build a house, and like get pregnant, like all at the exact same time. Like that might be like a little much. Um, but at the same time, it's fun and I love chaos, I thrive in it. So I don't know. I I feel really fortunate in this moment of my life and in my marriage and who I chose. And I think looking back at my younger self in different relationships, I would just tell women who are entering marriage or looking to enter marriage or dating or what have you, and it's like I've seen this on the internet, but marry the the man or a man like your life depends on it because it does. And I think oftentimes we go to this place where it's like I don't need a man, I don't it's like no, I I do want a man and I do need a man, and I that's why I married Paul, and that's why I committed to that. And um, it's not perfect at all, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:06

What would you tell yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:10

I guess what I would tell myself is what I wanted to end with. So first thing is, and this is for everybody, but I guess I'm really focusing on the men listening, is for everybody, anytime you want to say something, just if you can catch it before it comes out of your mouth, ask, is it pro-relationship? Because you are on the same team. We are on the same team. And it took us a little while to learn that, uh, or a long time to learn that. And uh that changes the trajectory of your relationship in an immense way. Uh for men, maybe it was for women too, but especially for men when it comes to the emotional uh understanding, uh ask for help. That's the only thing I can say is when you don't want to ask for help, probably means you should. So talk to a friend, get a counselor, like find a men's group. Turns out there's a ton of men's groups, whether like whether you want to go to a Christian men's group or just like any other one, there's a lot of them, a lot of them available, and uh it's worth it. And number three is a really simple challenge for men. And I might have already said this in one of the podcasts with Mackenzie. But if as a man you're in a relationship where you feel like maybe you are not getting everything you want, what I would recommend is try to go on a one, two, three, four-month run of no expectations. Come into the house if you have whatever your life is, if you have kids, you don't have kids, whether you are the sole provider at work or not, come into the house and anything that has to be done, step up and just do it with zero expectation for an attaboy or anything in return. I'm talking about simple things like laundry and dishes and helping put the kids to bed, doing baths, like the simple as shit. If any man listening to this is in a marriage right now where even just currently you are not getting what you want, I would implore you to try this and to put in the time as long as it takes because women are very smart and extremely intuitive, and your wife will notice, and my guess is your relationship will get better really fast. And it's just something really simple to try. It was something that I tried as soon as I got home from the uh group that I went to seven years ago.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:00

And and that was Warrior.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:02

That was Warrior, yeah. And uh, you know, in the back of my head, I was like, hmm, I wonder if she's gonna notice I'm doing these things. Like, you know, you get like a little child, like, oh man, I'm like working my ass off and I'm not getting any attaboys, but I promised myself and I promised my coaches I wasn't going to look for that. So you just like keep doing it. And I remember like I think I remember the day that she like all of a sudden looked at me a little differently, and it was like boom, she noticed a change in me, and I had to do just even this stuff long enough for her to notice that I had a change going on in my head, and that all of a sudden she was like, Oh, he has a real change going on in his head. Now I'm going to at least start to meet him where he's at and grow together. So if anyone listening is in that spot, I implore you to give that a shot. Anything else from you, ladies? I really appreciate you spending the time. And I know this was a little bit of a different one, but this was super fun. And I really hope that this leads to men and women having better marriages, better home lives, which then leads to better discipline, better momentum in every aspect of life.

unknown 1:24:23

Thank you guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:24

Really appreciate it. Thanks for tuning into the success architect. If today's episode helped you lay a stronger foundation for your business, for your life, subscribe and share it with someone ready to do the same with her. You can follow me.